[09:03:23] <jaubourg> oh hai
[09:03:27] * timmywil is this thing on?
[09:03:28] <rwaldron> howdy
[09:03:36] <timmywil> hi!
[09:04:07] <jaubourg> I guess Dave does not have wifi in the plane?
[09:04:20] <rwaldron> markelog I love this jscs task, I think I will love it more once we can "teach" it new things :)
[09:04:36] <jaubourg> yeah, this thing looks good so far
[09:05:40] <markelog> hey
[09:06:40] <jaubourg> ok, so who's in charge of the agenda if Dave's not around? timmywil? rwaldron?
[09:06:48] <rwaldron> I used to do it
[09:07:01] <rwaldron> but I'm sure someone else is better suited to the task now
[09:07:11] <rwaldron> I'm here to cheer them on
[09:07:12] <jaubourg>  /s/used to//
[09:07:18] <jaubourg> OMG
[09:07:23] <DaveMethvin> yayt
[09:07:28] <timmywil> he made it!
[09:07:31] <DaveMethvin> speaking to you from 30000 feet
[09:07:41] <rwaldron> fancy
[09:07:41] <jaubourg> 25000 feet
[09:07:44] <jaubourg> 20000 feet
[09:07:45] <jzaefferer> DaveMethvin, you should've waited to see what happens when you're aren't there
[09:07:46] <jaubourg> uh oh
[09:07:51] <DaveMethvin> i'm higher than you jaubourg
[09:07:57] <jaubourg> :P
[09:08:05] <jzaefferer> The meeting notes never capture Julian's trolling
[09:08:07] <DaveMethvin> nm carry on without me
[09:08:07] <rwaldron> thats what cheech said
[09:08:38] <jaubourg> jzaefferer: french trolling is the bomb
[09:08:49] <DaveMethvin> so let me opne the agenda
[09:09:33] <DaveMethvin> didn't we find some tix for jaubourg to do yet?
[09:09:43] <DaveMethvin> there's gotta be some ajax stuff broken
[09:09:47] <jaubourg> I have one I need to tackle but send them my way
[09:09:53] <jaubourg> what's the deadline for beta2?
[09:10:00] <DaveMethvin> good question
[09:10:07] <DaveMethvin> i will be traveling this week and next
[09:10:16] <DaveMethvin> so prob the end of the month is realistic
[09:10:35] <DaveMethvin> next week on monday, scott and i will be in moscow
[09:11:05] <DaveMethvin> we'll be drinking vodka with markelog
[09:11:09] <DaveMethvin> breakfast of champions
[09:11:34] <jaubourg> make it before November, I'm travelling pretty much non stop in November
[09:11:44] <markelog> i hate it :-), beer maybe?
[09:11:58] <DaveMethvin> yeah i am a beer man myself
[09:12:19] <DaveMethvin> ah thanks jaubourg
[09:12:43] <DaveMethvin> anybody else want to take a look at jQuery Migrate and see why it's failing?
[09:12:51] <DaveMethvin> i think it's a simple thing, i just haven't had the time to look
[09:12:55] * jaubourg looks at ceiling
[09:13:26] <m_gol> hey, I'm here, but slightly afk today
[09:13:31] <DaveMethvin> lemme look at the last run
[09:13:56] <m_gol> but if you have specific questions for me, use my nick so that I see the notification
[09:14:09] <DaveMethvin> well that looks pretty sad
[09:14:12] <DaveMethvin> http://swarm.jquery.org/project/jquerymigrate
[09:14:50] <DaveMethvin> hmmm, seems more failey than i recall
[09:14:55] <DaveMethvin> O
[09:15:00] <DaveMethvin> :O
[09:15:19] <jaubourg> m_gol: 13965 will be impossible to fix. It's browsers fireing unload event while they shouldn't
[09:15:47] <jaubourg> DaveMethvin: it's something that changed in jQuery?
[09:16:02] <DaveMethvin> not sure
[09:16:15] <DaveMethvin> have to figure out when it started :)
[09:16:49] <DaveMethvin> well the good news is that it doesn't fail with the older stuff, just the latest :/
[09:17:32] <DaveMethvin> and it all seems to be jQuery.SubClass
[09:17:34] <jaubourg> works with IE5 but not this fancy new Grome browser fro chuggle
[09:18:25] <DaveMethvin> which explains why nobody filed a bug on it, nobody uses SubClass
[09:18:35] <DaveMethvin> er, .sub
[09:18:47] <DaveMethvin> how quickly we forget
[09:18:57] <gibson042> lol
[09:19:05] * rwaldron barf
[09:19:06] <jaubourg> oh well, it was such an important feature that needed to be put in asap with no discussion and...
[09:19:08] * jaubourg hides
[09:19:18] <rwaldron> jaubourg ftw
[09:19:23] <DaveMethvin> lol
[09:19:31] <gibson042> so I can't look at Migrate this week, but if we're looking at end-of-month then that's more likely
[09:19:38] <DaveMethvin> noubliez jamais
[09:19:48] * jaubourg hugs DaveMethvin
[09:20:06] <DaveMethvin> gibson042 that would be awesome
[09:20:11] <gibson042> I see failures in .sub and attrHooks, and the attrHooks one is probably from some jQuery/Sizzle movement
[09:20:13] <DaveMethvin> i am pretty sure i can't get to it any earlier
[09:20:32] <DaveMethvin> so if you could look whenever that would be great
[09:20:37] <DaveMethvin> doesn't have to be timed to the beta
[09:20:40] * jaubourg watches Sizzle move... move baby, move!
[09:21:16] <jaubourg> Do we have any idea how many people use migrate de facto on their site?
[09:21:27] <jaubourg> I'd be curious
[09:21:27] <gibson042> jaubourg: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horizontal_gene_transfer ;)
[09:21:44] <DaveMethvin> i think wordpress includes it by default still, don't they?
[09:21:49] <DaveMethvin> so that's, er, a shitload
[09:21:56] <jaubourg> jeez
[09:22:19] <jaubourg> that IS a shitload
[09:22:19] <DaveMethvin> it's not a bad idea for them, if it prevents people loading 3 copies of jQuery
[09:22:35] <jaubourg> needs more jqueries
[09:22:54] <DaveMethvin> so did  you guys fight out the question of whether we install grunt/bower locally :)
[09:23:12] <jaubourg> I don't care either way personally
[09:23:18] <DaveMethvin> we either need to make the error more obvious or make the error go away
[09:23:25] <jaubourg> I know some have strong opinions on this though
[09:23:42] <jaubourg> what we should be though is consistent
[09:23:44] <DaveMethvin> i don't have a strong opinion but would like to avoid more pull requests to add it as a dep :)
[09:23:57] <jaubourg> if we say something in the doc, let's not support something else irl
[09:24:03] <timmywil> markelog is determined, but Scott and I are against
[09:24:07] <DaveMethvin> i do think we should strongly recommend that both be installed global
[09:24:21] <jaubourg> if so, then we should fail when it is now
[09:24:23] <jaubourg> not
[09:24:28] <jaubourg> not now
[09:24:32] <jaubourg> oh well, you got it :P
[09:24:43] <DaveMethvin> big ASCII text letters F A I L
[09:25:04] <DaveMethvin> well does it *hurt* to install them locally if they're not global?
[09:25:25] <jaubourg> with the definition of the world globally from the english dictionary with more snark added... that sounds like a jQuery error message to me
[09:25:26] <DaveMethvin> first do no harm, etc
[09:25:40] <DaveMethvin> markelog are you around?
[09:25:45] <timmywil> it hurts from an education standpoint at least
[09:25:49] <markelog> timmywil: why we could not do both - advertise global grunt use and install it locally?
[09:25:55] <jaubourg> well, I think it doesn't matter but it's all about being consistent I think
[09:26:09] <timmywil> markelog: I don't think there's enough of a need to do that
[09:26:15] <DaveMethvin> can we do some kind of --force option to do a local install?
[09:26:16] <jaubourg> it's bad to say "install globally" and then sneak-install locally when it's not
[09:26:55] <markelog> DaveMethvin: i don't think so
[09:27:02] <DaveMethvin> i just think about the situation when grunt was 3.x/4.x and a global install would not be the right thing then
[09:27:22] <jaubourg> well, grunt solved the issue by separating grunt itself from the cli
[09:27:30] <jaubourg> so local grunt, global cli
[09:27:40] <jaubourg> I dunno what the state of bower is in that regard
[09:27:48] <DaveMethvin> yeah, i wondered about that for bower
[09:28:14] <DaveMethvin> has anyone asked the bower folks about this?
[09:28:25] <DaveMethvin> seems like it would be a common issue potentially
[09:28:42] <DaveMethvin> if they really want to be global i'd feel bad about sneaking in a local copy against their wishes
[09:28:56] <jaubourg> when I read "bower folks", I picture weird people walking on bumpers shoes (bow bow bow)
[09:29:11] <DaveMethvin> my fingers always want to type bowser
[09:29:30] <jaubourg> too awfully clode to goser, the destroyer of worlds
[09:29:34] <timmywil> it seems clear bower intends to be global
[09:29:34] <jaubourg> close even
[09:29:43] <markelog> they both do
[09:29:46] <markelog> and they should be
[09:30:06] <jaubourg> markelog: context, I dunno what you're answering to ;)
[09:30:21] <DaveMethvin> i just wonder if this  is a problem they've yet to see in volume because they don't have a gorilla project like ours using it
[09:30:22] <markelog> it's for timmywil :-)
[09:30:34] <jaubourg> ok
[09:30:37] <DaveMethvin> kind of like sourcemaps :)
[09:30:45] <DaveMethvin> everything breaks when we use it!
[09:30:58] <timmywil> having bower and grunt-cli in our package.json for devDependencies sets a bad precedent on a very visible github repo
[09:31:00] * jaubourg slaps his forehead Capt Picard way
[09:31:26] <DaveMethvin> if the bower guys would dislike a local install we should avoid it
[09:31:51] <DaveMethvin> but it stil might be worth discussing with them to see if they think this is an issue they need to address
[09:32:01] <DaveMethvin> somehow
[09:32:30] <markelog> do we know some bower guys?
[09:32:34] <DaveMethvin> who's the best contact there?
[09:32:44] <DaveMethvin> does addy work on it anymore?
[09:32:53] <timmywil> dan does
[09:33:06] <jaubourg> dan's the man
[09:33:07] <DaveMethvin> danheberden ftw!
[09:33:34] <DaveMethvin> oh danny boy, the core the core is callin'!
[09:33:44] <jaubourg> dan dan dan dan dan dan dan... heberden
[09:34:07] <DaveMethvin> i'll point him to our meeting notes and see if we can get their thoughts
[09:34:18] <jaubourg> BRAINS
[09:34:43] <markelog> maybe this is to controversial, if so let's do the scott message PR?
[09:34:55] <jaubourg> I see the message is good enough
[09:34:58] <jaubourg> think
[09:35:20] <DaveMethvin> we should definitely make the message more ANNOYING at least!
[09:35:30] <markelog> well, there you go, if that will work - then great
[09:35:35] <DaveMethvin> do you want to land that now, and wait for feedback from Bower?
[09:35:44] <timmywil> I've pinged the bower folks
[09:35:48] <jaubourg> "Everytime you don't install grunt and bower globally, DaveMethvin kills a kitten"
[09:35:56] <DaveMethvin> i'd never do that!
[09:36:04] <timmywil> dog?
[09:36:12] <DaveMethvin> i have one of those too
[09:36:12] <jaubourg> bird?
[09:36:12] <gibson042> process
[09:36:24] <gibson042> RANDOMLY
[09:36:24] <markelog> i'm afk for sec
[09:36:24] <DaveMethvin> yep that too
[09:36:25] <DaveMethvin> dammit i need fewer pets
[09:36:30] <jaubourg> hehe
[09:36:40] <timmywil> dinosaur
[09:36:44] <jaubourg> gibson042: love that one
[09:36:56] <jaubourg> "Everytime you don't install grunt and bower globally, DaveMethvin will kill a process RANDOMLY"
[09:37:05] <DaveMethvin> who wants to do the honors on that pull from scott?
[09:37:06] <m_gol> on a random machine
[09:37:09] <m_gol> in your home
[09:37:20] <DaveMethvin> i do that all the time anyway, i'm on Windows
[09:37:22] <jaubourg> even in you virtual machines
[09:37:35] <jaubourg> DaveMethvin: I feel your pain
[09:38:24] <DaveMethvin> timmywil can you land that warning message when you get a chance?
[09:38:31] <timmywil> DaveMethvin: oh sure
[09:38:54] <DaveMethvin> gee i just noticed how non-sucky this connection is
[09:39:08] <DaveMethvin> alright, next item
[09:39:11] <DaveMethvin> sourcemaps
[09:39:23] <DaveMethvin> supposedly chrome no longer yells 404 on a missing map
[09:39:32] <DaveMethvin> paul had that changed fast tracked
[09:40:01] <DaveMethvin> is that enough? It probalby will stop people from bitching to us but it really isn't solving all the sourcemap issues
[09:40:23] <DaveMethvin> so i'm wondering how we can move some of our suggestions/problems forward with the sourcemap gods
[09:40:35] <timmywil> I need to read the responses
[09:41:00] <timmywil> is this all by email or is there a public thread/ticket?
[09:41:09] <DaveMethvin> i liked some of gibson042 suggestions but i know they'll encounter resistance because they aren't as easy as the crappy way it can be done now
[09:41:15] <DaveMethvin> it's on our ticket let me find it
[09:41:46] <gibson042> http://bugs.jquery.com/ticket/14415
[09:41:47] <DaveMethvin> http://bugs.jquery.com/ticket/14415
[09:42:03] <timmywil> blitzed
[09:42:32] <DaveMethvin> mine actually was sent first but had to travel 30,000 feet :P
[09:43:27] <DaveMethvin> i really do feel like this is a case of the sourcemap spec not really fitting the use cases
[09:43:37] <jaubourg> is that some size comparison kind of thing?
[09:43:40] * jaubourg hides
[09:43:43] <timmywil> sounds like we need John Lenz or Nick Fitzgerald in on the discussion
[09:43:54] <m_gol> oh, sourcemap
[09:43:55] <DaveMethvin> we do need their attention
[09:43:56] <m_gol> s
[09:44:06] <m_gol> as for Chrome
[09:44:09] <m_gol> I don't think so
[09:44:43] <m_gol> http://getbootstrap.com/ still yells at me
[09:44:47] <DaveMethvin> the best way to get their attention is to remove sourcemaps i think :)
[09:44:52] <jaubourg> Any decent solution is far less trivial then 2 urls
[09:45:07] <DaveMethvin> i just want something that is less likely to break
[09:45:09] <m_gol> in both stable & canary
[09:45:24] <m_gol> so sth's not working with this not yelling...
[09:45:27] <m_gol> cc paul_irish
[09:45:28] <DaveMethvin> implicit naming and/or the ability to reference the cdn map for local copies
[09:45:46] <m_gol> and obviously the ideal one
[09:45:55] <m_gol> i.e. not storing this info in the minified file
[09:45:56] <m_gol> at all
[09:46:09] <m_gol> but via manifest, custom attributes on script tags etc.
[09:46:12] <jaubourg> well, my suggestion is to add the map and original source urls as attributes of the script tag... like we do for the source
[09:46:32] <jaubourg> since scripts are still mostly loaded using script tag or script tag injection
[09:46:46] <DaveMethvin> that makes it seem so...permanent :)
[09:46:46] <paul_irish> m_gol: in console? chrome 30?
[09:47:16] <m_gol> paul_irish: ah, not in a console
[09:47:19] <m_gol> but on a network tab
[09:47:26] <m_gol> but maybe that's not a problem
[09:47:31] <jaubourg> DaveMethvin: <script src="..." map="..." original-src="..."></script> looks good to me
[09:47:54] <m_gol> paul_irish: sorry, I assumed they're strictly related :)
[09:47:56] <DaveMethvin> that means the html needs to know about the debugging
[09:48:18] <jaubourg> which isn't really a problem, is it?
[09:48:19] <DaveMethvin> a 404 in the network tab is still gonna confuse people i'd think
[09:48:25] <DaveMethvin> better than the console message tho
[09:48:59] <DaveMethvin> we just need to look at the way people copy/move/rename files and find a more resilient way to associate a map
[09:49:15] <jaubourg> there is no resilient way to handle the situation
[09:49:25] <m_gol> DaveMethvin: searching for a non-ideal solution, huh? ;)
[09:49:37] <jaubourg> which is why there's a problem to begin with
[09:49:37] <DaveMethvin> yeah :)
[09:49:53] <DaveMethvin> exactly, we need the least sucky solution of the ones that suck!
[09:50:16] <m_gol> I'd still like them to at least say sth about the manifest/attribute proposals
[09:50:35] <DaveMethvin> something more out of band would be nice like a way to set them manually in the dev tools
[09:50:38] <m_gol> If they're going to discard them, at least let they do it explicitely
[09:50:51] <m_gol> yes, that as well
[09:51:01] <m_gol> but the most important one is how to do it implicitely
[09:51:12] <m_gol> since that's what generates 99% of the problems
[09:51:18] <timmywil> brb
[09:51:20] <gibson042> right, there's one level (the formatting of source and map), and then there's a higher level (the association between them)
[09:51:36] <jaubourg> well 1) you cannot have the sourcemap location in the file (CRC-check failure) 2) you cannot automagically determine the name (too heavy a convention). That just left us with new attributes to add the info so that it is external to the script. IMO it belongs in the HTML doc. The HTML docs knows what script it uses and what its sourcemap is
[09:51:44] <DaveMethvin> right, and getting rid of the names inside the files also means they don't need to change hashes all the time
[09:52:06] <m_gol> +1
[09:52:14] <DaveMethvin> with limitations, i think we CAN do #2 jaubourg
[09:52:24] <jaubourg> I think it's a terrible idea
[09:52:36] <m_gol> less terrible than what we have now :)
[09:52:38] <DaveMethvin> of course it sucks, but it sucks the LEASST!
[09:52:42] <DaveMethvin> exactly
[09:53:00] <DaveMethvin> the most important thing when trying to get out of a hole is not to dig a deeper hole
[09:53:07] <m_gol> terrible or "terribler" ;)
[09:53:40] <DaveMethvin> if we make it so that jquery.min.js assumes jquery.min.map and the map assumes jquery.js, then all will be well
[09:53:53] <DaveMethvin> or jquery.min.js.map if you like
[09:53:57] <jaubourg> except i cannot use the CDN map with my local copy
[09:54:08] <DaveMethvin> yes, it doesn't make THAT suck less
[09:54:11] <jaubourg> you assume everything's duplicated everywhere
[09:54:19] <m_gol> I have much less problems with SASS->CSS source maps
[09:54:24] <jaubourg> which is terrible imo
[09:54:31] <m_gol> but that's probably because no one is copying the generated CSS
[09:54:43] <DaveMethvin> yeah those tend to be project specific
[09:54:46] <DaveMethvin> not copied off cdns
[09:55:09] <m_gol> by the way
[09:55:11] <jaubourg> anyway, I gotta fly
[09:55:12] <DaveMethvin> we're definitely not filling in the hole all the way
[09:55:19] <m_gol> I like what markelog said a while ago in Portland
[09:55:22] <DaveMethvin> ok thanks for coming jaubourg
[09:55:26] <jaubourg> (not as high as you Dave but still)
[09:55:36] <jaubourg> cya guys and sorry to have to run away like that
[09:55:37] <m_gol> that you might have browsers just download the full file if one checks it in dev tools
[09:55:39] <m_gol> without a map
[09:55:49] <m_gol> though maybe that won't cover all cases
[09:55:57] <m_gol> and it'll certainly cover only JS->JS cases
[09:56:02] <m_gol> or CSS->CSS
[09:56:20] <m_gol> no SASS, LESS, CoffeScript etc.
[09:56:23] <DaveMethvin> the troubles started when the sourcemap option became checked by default
[09:56:38] <DaveMethvin> because it seems about 95% of people don't use it
[09:56:44] <DaveMethvin> or don't realize they're using it :)
[09:56:58] <m_gol> but they do recognize what 404 means ;)
[09:57:04] <DaveMethvin> damn straight!
[09:57:17] <DaveMethvin> if the file name has the word "jquery" in it, then jQuery messed up!
[09:57:38] <DaveMethvin> we should name our map files "chrome-bug"
[09:57:57] <DaveMethvin> hmmm, maybe not such a bad idea
[09:58:03] * DaveMethvin makes evil grin
[09:58:04] <m_gol> so, what do you think is the best way to make source map spec authors respond to our proposals? :)
[09:58:14] <DaveMethvin> bug paul_irish
[09:58:21] <DaveMethvin> it's always worked for me before
[09:58:23] <m_gol> :D
[09:58:56] <DaveMethvin> we're running out of meeting here, so i'll take an action item to follow up on this one
[09:58:59] <paul_irish> m_gol: there is a mailing list specifically for it
[09:59:15] <paul_irish> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-js-sourcemap
[09:59:19] <DaveMethvin> yeah m_gol and i post there often paul_irish
[09:59:33] <m_gol> I wonder if it was good to put it all on our bug tracker instead of there
[09:59:51] <paul_irish> right i dont think most sourcemap people know it's on your bug tracker :)
[09:59:52] <m_gol> we might do a summary post
[09:59:56] <paul_irish> that'd be awesome
[10:00:07] <DaveMethvin>  lemme find the post i made there
[10:00:10] <paul_irish> would be good to summarize the comment discussion.
[10:00:29] <DaveMethvin> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/mozilla.dev.js-sourcemap/rIt4kvlC6GI
[10:01:24] <m_gol> DaveMethvin paul_irish: maybe let's open a Google Doc where we'd write a summary from our discussion here & on the bug
[10:01:33] <m_gol> and when it's ready, we'll post to this thread
[10:01:38] <DaveMethvin> if that helped i'd be all up for it
[10:01:48] <DaveMethvin> but we need the sourcemap impls to participate
[10:01:52] <m_gol> or maybe create a new one since the topic got a little outdated
[10:01:59] <m_gol> and just link to that new thread from this one
[10:01:59] <paul_irish> wow weird i did not get these recent messages from you DaveMethvin
[10:02:08] <DaveMethvin> it's already covered in that thread and the ticket, and the two are xrefed
[10:02:28] <DaveMethvin> probably a gmail problem paul_irish :)
[10:03:05] <paul_irish> i somehow unsubscribed. /me shrugs
[10:03:05] <b-ot> paul_irish: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
[10:03:10] <paul_irish> thx b-ot
[10:03:12] <DaveMethvin> lol
[10:03:29] <DaveMethvin> he's humble and loveable
[10:03:44] <paul_irish> speaking of humble
[10:04:13] <paul_irish> in that thread i earlier was like "we can't add this to every JS file" .. "itll be too many bytes!" and then am like "use a datauri sourcemap!"
[10:04:28] <paul_irish> that's psycho.
[10:04:34] <m_gol> :)
[10:04:37] <DaveMethvin> talk about bytes!
[10:04:56] <m_gol> DaveMethvin: I can start a draft if you want, but I'm not sure if I make it this week, certainly not before Thursday
[10:04:58] <DaveMethvin> okay imma close this meeting channel
[10:05:01] <paul_irish> kk
[10:05:03] <DaveMethvin> party continues in -dev
[10:05:10] <DaveMethvin> m_gol that woudl be fine
[10:05:14] <DaveMethvin> thanks
[10:05:17] <m_gol> k